http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LRA

1. I don’t think it’s sufficient, at least in terms of what Jesus expects, to make the only line of division between the church and the world “intention”. It seems to me, at least, that Jesus wants his church to be a “city on a hill”, a “light to the world”, that he wants the world to know us by our love for one another. However difficult this might be for our theology (and we’re not the first generation to struggle with this question, for certain), Jesus definitely seems to expect that his church will be noticeably different from the world.

2. That said, we have to deal with the experience that you describe. Why is it that in our experience we find many non-Christians acting better than Christians, and many Christians not being practically different from non-Christians? I don’t think there is a simple answer to this (the answer is as complex as human psychology, multiplied by the number of individuals we are observing), but my hunch is this: what you and I see as general trends in our experience are actually unusual historically speaking. And by that I don’t mean to say our period is the only one where such things have been seen. I think the problem is basically that the church in our age (and in many others) has completely lost touch with what Jesus actually has called us to. It’s not that it is never possible that the church could be noticeably different than the world (for example, the early church, the Mennonites/Amish, missionaries in 3rd world countries today, etc.); it’s just that the Western church is failing horribly at living up to its calling (not unlike other churches in other periods of history).

I might be off base here; if so, I’d definitely like to hear other ideas. But I think if we reduce the church/world distinction to intentions, we start to cause problems for the gospel as a whole. If Jesus came to bring the kingdom of God to earth, but all it really changes are the thoughts inside people, isn’t Jesus’ message just plain false?

What do you think?

We are taught to glory in our knowledge about God and what he wants. I really believe that we are taught to be Pharisees much more than we are taught to follow Jesus. And, honestly, I don’t think you really need to be taught how to follow Jesus. Jesus was simply living in the heartbeat of the creator and I believe we have the same heartbeat and impulse with in us. But the Pharisaic teachings that we get mushed into our hair as Christians clouds us from feeling the heartbeat of God.

It won’t be a popular idea among some Christians, but our oh so holy knowledge drags us so much further away from God than our neighbours are. And once you have been poisoned by religion it really does take Intentional Living to bring you back into balance with creation.

I am sometimes even uncomfortable with claiming to be a Christian, not because I’m ashamed of professing Christ, but because I feel unworthy of the title.

I would never put a bumpersticker on my car that read “Jesus is My Co-Pilot”. I’m a terrible driver.

I agree that I Jesus wants these things and for us to be known for our love, however do you think that its actually happening? I don’t think it is. However I do think their is love and goodness in the world, but it doesn’t come exclusively by the church. So either we redefine who the church is or we admit that the church isn’t who it’s called to be.

To me it always seemed that Jesus came to change the heart, and to change the inside, not because he didn’t care about the outside actions of people but because he knew that only by changing their hearts and intentions would their outside actions ever change.

And by saying that I cancel out my statement that the difference is intentions. It can’t be, because even Paul struggled with that, intending to do one thing and doing another. So then really I struggle what is the difference between Christians and non.

Or maybe your right, maybe we’re so far away here in the West from what Jesus meant that very very very few of us are actually the church. But then where does grace come in.

Are Christians those that are participating with God in bringing the Kingdom of God to earth? Can someone who doesn’t profess to be a Christians actually participate without knowing it?

I agree with your point about Jesus’ intentions. I’m not sure about your interpretation of Paul (in Romans 7, I’m assuming you’re alluding to); I of course recognize that mixed intentions and actions are a part of every Christian life (I’m not a Wesleyan perfectionist), but I don’t think that’s what Paul is talking about, and I think that even within the context of that passage Paul teaches that we should be noticeably different than the world: Christians are not under the dominion of sin anymore.

I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking regarding grace… care to expand a bit?

Are Christians those that are participating with God in bringing the Kingdom of God to earth?

In a sense, yes. But it all depends on how “participating” and “the kingdom of God” are defined, I think. The same would go for your second question.

My comment about grace just meant that if ‘actions’ or ‘intentions’ negate being a Christians, well I don’t think any of us agree with that, but if we did there would be no grace.

And who decided what those things are, and who decided who decides, and why your life can’t just be defined by the things you’re doing now… like pouring yourself into the co-creation of a rather vibrant and exciting community of faith in downtown Sarnia, or defined by the person of Christ, or defined by…

I’m hardly one to have any right answers, either – in fact I’m getting used to saying that I’m clueless about most of this following Jesus stuff, but I’m really beginning to embrace the wisdom of just doing the best I can, with what I have, right now. It seems a whole lot better to live like this than all those years I spent beating myself up for not being a good enough Christian.

Of course, I might have missed the entire point of what you’re saying. (Been known to happen!) I’ve been reading here for awhile, and enjoying it a great deal – so I hope you don’t feel any of this is criticism, just the stuff you made me think of after reading your post.

Rhymes with Kerouac
I’m hoping that the things in our lives are defined and given meaning to by Jesus and his mission. Where I don’t think a lot of Christians really see their faith that way, it’s more of an add-on thing for them. So the things you mention, they are most certainly things that I should be defining my life, yet with so much more…It can’t be just what I’m doing, I still have a lot of changes to make.

No criticism at all and thanks for the comment!

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you’re trying to say that the criteria for being a Christian can’t be moral perfection, since then no one would be Christians, and we know God has promised to forgive even Christians of their sins. If that’s what you mean, then you’re right, of course; but I don’t think the reality of grace and forgiveness for Christians undercuts that we are supposed to be distinct from the world. Jesus and Paul still have those frightening words, “I will say to them, ‘Depart from me, you evildoers, I never knew you,’” and “Do not be deceived, people who live like this [re: the ways of the flesh] will not inherit the kingdom of God.” The problem is: where’s the line? How do we know when we’ve crossed it? The best answer I can give is: our characters, in the sense of the way we generally act (not the way we always act), ought to be distinguishable from the world. If it isn’t, then we ought to be afraid.

But that’s just my $.02.