I’m a student pastor with a yearly salary. I’ve been here in this role for 1.5 years now. I’ve been wrestling with this for a while now, even before I took this job.

There are pro’s and con’s of this type of system. But the con’s really suck.. Honestly – You can’t model sacrifice, the way of Christ very well when you are paid to do it, to be a pastor. People in the church expect you to do “your job” and they will “do their jobs”. Truth is.. your job is their/our job. This paragraph is gold…

“I would hope that a community would together fulfill the role of what we have created the “senior pastor” into. The church would be dedicated to cultivating the community and growing together. When someone is in need, the community responds. The community learns to teach each other and build up their teachers. I hate the idea of the communal responsibility being passed off onto one individual for a pay check, or at least this is what happens in many circumstances”.

I hate the senior pastor, youth pastor thing… hate it. I refuse to ever be a tradional sr. pastor. It totally messes with the function of the church…

I also never get out of the church bubble.. I’m paid to stay in it. And I’m kept busy doing the work of the body -so how can I escape? There’s just too much to do.. Stuff I’m not even gifted act so it takes way longer..

Right now I know God has me in this situation to learn from the inside. I’m interested thinking further in this proposed system you’ve put together. I still however don’t know if their should be people on full time church duty no matter how their needs are cared for. I think they should never be so filled with stuff to do in the church that they aren’t available outside the bubble. Ministry is everything we do. We are all pastors, we are all called to be the royal priesthood, we need to blur the lines of “in church” and “out church” so that everyone realizes they are “the church”.

Thanks so much for reminding me of this discussion. It’s a messy one. Yet it’s huge for our current times.. God’s changing things.. Soon if the economy keeps the way it is we might all be forced to leave our in church salary jobs. Maybe that’s what God wants… I’m just not sure yet.

Greg

Like Greg, I too am “on staff” at a church. I get paid a full-time salary.

I don’t *necessarily* have a problem with this. I mean, I definitely hear and am aware of some of the issues you and Greg have raised, but, I don’t think these *necessarily* have to be issues. Certainly many pastors get paid a hell of a lot more than they should be getting paid.

You talk about, as a community, deciding on what the pastors needs are and meeting those needs. I wonder if even a majority of the community would be able to agree on what those needs might be. Also, I’m not sure I know anyone at all who strictly has their needs met and then does away with the rest of their income. But on to my real question, is there a real quantitative/qualitative difference between “paying” a pastor and “meeting the needs” of a pastor? Surly, “meeting the needs” of a pastor would at some point be in monetary terms, no?

I certainly have my issues with typical church leadership structures, however, I tend to think that a bi-vocational basis is beneficial.

Also, if your argument is that people ought not to be paid full-time to fulfill the duties of the Church then wouldn’t this extend beyond “pastors”? How about people who ‘professionally’ care for the poor, or provide shelter/jobs to refugees, or dig wells in foreign countries or run day camps for underprivileged children? These all seem to me to be “Church duties”, so should people not be paid a wage for such things?

Grace and peace,

JT.

READER DISCRETION IS ADVISED.

Greg, “you can’t model sacrifice, the way of Christ very well when you are paid to do it” A lot of truth in that statement and I think it is that realization that drives me to think the way I do about this.

I don’t think the ideal way is to have one person who is paid full time to think about the church all the time, the ideal would be for everyone to always be thinking about the mission of God and the furthering of the kingdom, unfortunately it’s more like we’d rather just tithe and pay the pastor to do it for us.

Jonathan, I think an option like this is trying more to open the doors of community and accountablility than it is focused on withholding money from someone or thinking that money is bad.

What drives a post like this, is seeing paycheques or direct cash seen as a reasonable way to “pay back” someone who serves in the kingdom. It unfortunately to me sends a mixed message to everyone. Money cannot be the currency of the kingdom.

You’ve touched on a very important subject here and I think Scripture supports both models (remunerated and non-remunerated) forms of ministry, as evidenced in 1Cor. 9:12:

“If others have this right of support from you, shouldnt we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Dont you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. 15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast.”

Paul’s last line that he “would rather die” than give up the boast of preaching the gospel for free speaks to the idea of being free from the bondage of having to please people and depend on their support. And yet he also affirms his “right” to such support on the basis of God’s commands.

In Corinthians and Thessalonians we see Paul refusing the support of the people he is ministering to, presumably because he wanted to maintain credibility against the accusations that he was peddling religious services. But also because it appears the Corinthians didn’t consider him a “real” apostle because he would not take their support.

Your comments about the multiple roles being collapsed into one person reminds me of John Wesley’s sermon “Prophets and Priests” where he makes a distinction between prophetic ministry (which he equated with Methodist preaching) and priestly ministry (which he equated with the Church of England). In his mind, these two types of ministry were complemented each other, and he found quite distinct roles for priests and prophets in the Old Testament. Some, like Ezekiel, combined both roles. But many prophets in the Old Testament were not priests (e.g., Amos, the farmer). And many priests (e.g., Aaron) did not exercise a prophetic function. Wesley argued that after Constantine both roles were collapsed into one.

One of the questions we need to ask today is whether it is possible for us to be prophetic when the people are paying our salary. I don’t mean “prophetic” in the sense of apocalyptic foretelling (Tim LaHaye, et al), but rather in the calling people back to God, particularly when their shepherds have led them astray:

I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, I had a dream! I had a dream! How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through Baal worship. Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain? declares the LORD. Is not my word like fire, declares the LORD, and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?” (Jer. 23:25)

From my experience, it’s very difficult if not impossible to take your entire church community (even if its small) and suggest that they all practice this. But if you started with one or two individuals in hopes that it would trickle into the community then I can see it eventually getting there.

My hope is that communities would be like this, but they just aren’t and to try and ‘change’ entire communities all at once doesn’t seem to work, they are too big to make major changes like that. But if you put it on display then I can see possibly different members starting to come to the realization that this way works and is healthy and want to coming on board.

That said, I see at least two problems with what you are advocating:

(1) it ends up furthering the divide between the pastor and the congregation, and further relegating the pastor to an other-than-usual saintly status;

(2) it is open to all sorts of abuses — from people who dislike the pastor, seeking to impose absurd requirements on her and her family, to people who project all their guilt onto the pastor and thereby set absurd requirements on her and her family, and so on.

My thought is that, if there are people interested in this sort of financial openness and accountability, then why not initiate this as an open group within the church members — and the pastor and her family would have their support (which would be funded by the congregation as a whole) determined by this group.

If you had a pastor trying to advocate community, accountability and mutual support to the community I think it would be a lot better coming from a position of vulnerability and service rather one from leading and paid services.

I think this approach could possibly lend a hand to your views on leadership in that it removes the ‘leader’ from any position of control over the community and rather puts them at a place of service at their feet. Anyone who wishes to be a “leader” or a servant to the community is required to become the least of everyone in the community. Hopefully your second problem doesn’t end up being the issue though I do admit, it does put the pastor at a disadvantage and more vulnerable than I would want to be. Someone has got to take the initial steps of vulnerability and openness though and be at the mercy of the people they are serving at some point.