John read the book, I sent him an e-mail with your comment, I’ll tell him to e-mail you directly.

Good to hear from you Dan!

Anyway, don’t feel obligated to respond to this as I don’t want to sidetrack this post any further from the (excellent) topic that is actually its subject.

(Um… having said that, did your buddy read that Olympics book? Tell him to also look up a documentary called “Five Ring Circus” if he still needs convincing.)

I’m ok with the debate of women in leadership. It’s not the debate, it’s his putting people into categories (men and women) and literally mocking anyone that falls outside of those categories, as opposed to gracefully joining the dialogue on the debate. It’s his unwillingness to enter the conversation and refusing to dialogue that is hard to deal with. He just makes rash statements, mocks those that fall outside of his version of Christianity and makes very little effort to work alongside of those he disagrees with.

A few of his more well know things that stick out to me are pasted below. Again, i’m not upset that I disagree with him as much as I think the labeling that he attaches onto gender tend to not help the situation at all, and the fact that he is a jerk about it also….doesn’t help.

http://www.outofur.com/archives/2006/01/brian_mclaren_o_2.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WPVxndUcHQ

And his more famous one
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-goldstein/whos-to-blame-for-pastor-_b_33279.html
Sorry for that link, but the original post that people refer to is down.

I did see that clip about Avatar – not sure really what to think since I didn’t see the movie. I think his theology is strong and I know he has confessed publicly regarding his sins of pride which he needs to do. As far as gender…I dunno, he’s against women in leadership which is open for debate as well…although I think that is biblical no?
Anyways all told he’s doing way more good for the Kingdom than bad in my opinion.

thx,

I find Mark’s theology, when it comes to gender, women especially, to be harmful and less than encouraging. The way he puts people into gender roles doesn’t help anybody and is far from biblical.

Though I could probably say just as much good about him as well, he’s a gifted speaker and has created a space for an entire culture of Christians where many pastors have been unable to do that. So it’s probably a bit of both, mostly its his unenlightened view of gender and his insistence that only he is right (mixed with his prideful attitude while he’s explaining it) that is my problem. (Though his entire bit about Avatar was kind of ridiculous too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cI5GxM4f50&feature=player_embedded) where someone like J Kameron Karter actually gives reasons and academically dissects the movie (http://jkameroncarter.com/?p=56) instead of just saying “it’s bad and evil.”

I’ve written a few posts explaining what I don’t like about his style and theology, but he is one of the guys that I have to learn to be more graceful with yet still speak out against what he is saying.

This is off topic to your post but I am just wondering why you have a problem with Mark Driscoll? I’ve seen a couple times that you center him out. Is it him personally that bugs you or his teaching?

To be honest I find him to be spot on most of the time and a very gifted speaker. We listen to him all the time at our small group. I find he has a way of explaining biblical principles in ways that make sense to me.

I feel he is blessed with the spiritual gift of teaching.

My issue is though, that while systems were created by people, no one should gain their value from them. It’s those that gain their value from systems that are unable to allow their thoughts and beliefs to be criticized. So do it with compassion and grace, but don’t not do it just because someone is completely wrapped up in a certain way of thinking. It just forces you to build relationships with these people now instead of just yelling that them.

Kim, I also agree, while I think there is a lot of sketch that goes on in oppressive systems, I don’t think it’s necessarily intentional moves by individuals. I think by nature, oppressive systems hide any reality that hurts its progress, so they are forced to lie about it, so then those that are questioning start launching conspiracies to try an uncover the lies.

With that said, I agree with the concept.

So, to add to what you’re saying, I think there is hope for systems to change since those very systems were created by people in the first place. Yet, in the midst of this, I think it’s important to realize that much of the time we are not only victims but perpetrators of these very systems we seek to change and so “attacking systems” must first begin by us acknowledging, confessing and repenting of our own complicity with unjust, oppressive systems.

Again, good stuff.